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grammar question

Chop

ChopSuper Member!

Japan

Hello there! I can’t be sure if the sentence “I see the woman on the street will I get to borrow said ring that I help put it on?” is grammatical or not… Shouldn’t it be like “if I see the woman on the street will I get to borrow the said ring that I helped her put on?” or “if I see the woman on the street that I helped put on the said ring will I get to borrow it?” Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

09:29 AM Oct 30 2017 |

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Teacher AmySuper Member!

United States

Hi,



Wow! This is what we might call a “doozy” (it’s very complex and tricky). :)



I see you trying to put together the following ideas:


There is a woman with a ring.


You helped her put the ring on her finger.


If you see her, will you get to borrow said ring?



Putting these together creates a sentence with some very complex relationships. You might write it this way:


If I helped to put a ring on a woman’s finger, would I get to borrow said ring when I saw her on the street?



This sentence uses high-level concepts, including an unreal conditional with the subjunctive tense! :)



Also, a quick note: In your example, both “said” and “the” act as determiners. It is appropriate to use one or the other to refer to something already mentioned. However, we do not use them together.



I hope this helps!



Best,



Amy

04:32 PM Oct 30 2017 |

Chop

ChopSuper Member!

Japan

Hi Amy,
Thanks so much for your kind reply! The examples you suggested totally make sense.
And I’m deeply sorry that I forgot to mention that I quoted the sentence from the transcription of the daialog in the lesson “Crowdfunding.” http://www.englishbaby.com/lessons/7497/real_life/crowdfunding
It was like exactly the way I wrote above… is it ungrammatical…?
And I appreciate your giving quick note. I’ll avoid using the and said together. Please let me know if there is any cases where “the said something” is possible though.
Thank you!
Best,
Chop

09:41 PM Oct 30 2017 |

Teacher AmySuper Member!

United States

Hi,



Thank you for sharing the context! :)



You’re right to pull this sentence out. I noticed a couple typos that I have corrected. 



What Dominique actually says is: “… if I see the woman on the street, am I going to get to borrow said ring that I helped put in on?”



In the last message, I gave you my most academically grammatical suggestion (which included a typo of “it” instead of “in”). However, in this corrected context, it is important to remember that Dominique is using casual, spoken English.



I think the most confusing part is her use of the casual phrasal verb “put in on.” This means: to give money for a purpose. She “put in on” the purchase of the ring, in this example. 



Also, she is using a question form of the first conditional and imagining that this might possibly happen in the future. It’s a hypothetical (not proven to be true) use of the first conditional.  



Hopefully, that helps you make more sense of this!



Also, I have never heard/read “the said” before a noun, only one or the other. They basically do the same job, but “said” is an older, more classic version of a definite article. ;)



Best,



Amy

02:37 PM Oct 31 2017 |

Chop

ChopSuper Member!

Japan

Hi Amy,
Sorry for my late reply. Put in on makes sense.
Also your note on “said” is very helpful. Thanks for your explanations!
Best,
Chop

09:35 PM Nov 05 2017 |