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Life Talk!

Woman in ISLAM

muslima

Algeria

The role of women in Islam has been misunderstood in the West because of general ignorance of the Islamic system and way of life as a whole, and because of the distortions of the media.

The Muslim woman is accorded full spiritual and intellectual equality with man, and is encouraged to practice her religion and develop her intellectual faculties throughout her life. In her relations with men both are to observe modesty of behavior and dress and a strict code of morality which discourages unnecessary mixing of the sexes. Her relations with her husband should be based on mutual love and compassion. He is responsible for the maintenance of the wife and children, and she is to give him the respect due to the head of the family. She is responsible for the care of home and the children's early training. She may own her own property, run her own business and inherit in her own right.

She may not be married without being consulted and is able to obtain divorce. The system of limited polygamy can be seen to have its uses which may be in the interests of women as well as men. Finally she can look forward to an old age in which she is respected and shown every care by her children and by the society as a whole.

It would appear therefore that the Islamic system has achieved the right mixture of freedom and security that women seek and that is in the interest of the society as a whole. [As I mentioned at the start of this paper,] I have given the relevant quotations directly from the Qur'an and hadith since these are obviously the most authentic sources. If at different times and in different places these principles and laws have sometimes been distorted, ignored or flouted, it is not the principles and laws which are at fault, but man's selfishness which sometimes leads them to distort, ignore and flout what they do not like, and turn aside from the truth.

Fortunately no one has changed or can change the words of the Qur'an, and the regulations for the protection of women which were revealed in the 7th century can be easily verified by anyone in the 20th century, as we have just been doing. I believe that these laws and social regulations regarding women contain certain fundamental truths which will benefit whoever applies them. The present time of widespread rethinking of the role and rights of women is perhaps the appropriate time to look with fresh eyes at the Islamic point of view, which has contributed to the formation of stable societies in both sophisticated and underdeveloped peoples in vast areas of the world over the past fourteen centuries, which has retained the continuity of its principles, and from which the Western world may have something to learn.

taken from website.

06:58 PM Mar 04 2008 |

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princeton_girl1010

Israel

to Mark,
Hii :) in you all comments you seem against Islam!! but i don't see a reason for hating The Islam you know we recpect your believes and you too have to respect ours with all my respect to you and your religion, but if you hate any religion hate it in your heart with out saying it infront of the people who believe in it bcuz it'll hurt them and this is exactlly how i felt when you said : " MORE LIES FROM ANOTHER ISLAMO FASCIST trying to convert people to ISLAM" and for the record they're NOT LIES, they're the most trully things that i've ever heard .

Anyway thnx Muslima alot i really liked your topic :)  shokran kteeer elek kteeer 7eloo elmawdoo3 ^^.

11:10 PM Mar 09 2008 |

botayna

botayna

Morocco

salam

markchina i want to ask u 

just say no or yes 

u hate islam?

11:29 PM Mar 09 2008 |

M. Augustus

United States

I find the extent to which this forum is becoming "Islam Talk!" rather funny.

I think the assumption that because Markchina takes up a position against Islam he must be a Jewish fascist is an example of the negative stereotyping, divorced from reality, which is causing one-half the trouble in the Middle East right now.

Also, I think the terms 'racist' and 'fascist' are being misapplied by people on both sides.  Racism is belief in the inherent, biological supremacy of one group of people over another on the basis of race, not creed.  Some form of cultural/religious supremacism is definitely being demonstrated by some of the Muslim posters here, but unless it is on the basis of race and genetics rather than religious doctrine, it's not racism.  (Nor is opposition to Islam racism, mind.)

By a similar token, if you insist on using the term "Islamo-Fascism" (I don't like the term 'fascism' in general because it has become so widely used as to be a virtually meaningless epithet meaning 'government that I, the speaker, don't like'), then at the very least, limit its usage to attempts to create Islamic governments subject to the Sharia law system – any attempt at conversion is not, by nature, an Islamofascist act so much as an evangelistic act.  The same applies to 'Jewish fascist' – which is, lets admit it, an entirely meaningless term as respects anything except (possibly, some might argue) the governance of the state of Israel.

01:31 AM Mar 10 2008 |

M. Augustus

United States

On the subject at hand, muslima (or any of your creed), one thing I don't understand is how the system of 'limited polygamy' has any benefit for the women – and you don't provide any evidence in your post.

Could you provide some reasons for this?  I think it's a stretch. 

01:35 AM Mar 10 2008 |

princeton_girl1010

Israel

well people like me, you know MUSLIMS don't care what others think about our religion, and personally I'm SOO PROUD TO BE MUSLIM,

04:40 AM Mar 10 2008 |

M. Augustus

United States

Since this forum is for the learning of English, I deem that this usage discussion is probably not terribly off-topic. ;-)

I think the thing is that according to common usage, racism has to be based on biological or at least intrinsic properties of the people being held as inferior.  One dictionary.com definition, for instance:

"a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."

Belief in the superiority of Islam is belief in the superiority of a set of ideas, not intrinsic properties of the people who hold them.  That is, it is possible for a non-Muslim to BECOME Muslim, and thereby to become a member of the 'superior' group in the eye of Muslim supremacists.  This is not the situation for (for example) a black man in the eye of White Supremacists.  (Not even Michael Jackson can escape.)

Not all belief in the superiority of one thing over another can be classed as racism.  For instance, I believe that I am rationally superior to those who believe that the world was created over the course of 6 days in 4004 BC.  Am I racist because of that, or do I simply believe a certain idea to be true and those who don't believe it to be misguided?

To pick a more ridiculous example, I believe that people who like avocados have taste in vegetables inferior to mine.  Am I racist against avocado eaters?

Again, I agree with you 100% that the Muslims here on ebaby are far too pushy about their religion.  I simply am saying that not every case of someone saying that one thing is superior to another thing is racism, and not every kind of authoritarian government is fascism.

 

On the subject – still waiting in regards to the polygamy thing.  I really can't WAIT to hear how that's in women's interests, particularly because it's specifically one-sided polygamy. 

07:39 AM Mar 10 2008 |

M. Augustus

United States

Mark:  See, here's the thing – I just don't agree with you, Mark, that something can be 'racist against your beliefs'.  We can submit this to a usage panel if you like. ;)  However, I will point out that there are far more definitions of 'race' on the dictionary.com page that you cite that argue that 'race' is something you are born with.  Even the definition that you cite seems to me to have these characteristics – I do not believe that a person can move to the Netherlands at age 35 and proclaim himself a Dutchman, for instance, while a Muslim or Christian evangelical would welcome that same 35-year-old if he suddently converted. 

Again, I agree with you that what they're doing is (a) wrong and (even worse), (b) annoying as all hell.  I'm simply arguing with you about what to call it. ;).  To me, racism simply HAS to be hating someone (or thinking them inferior, etc) on the basis of something that they do not have the power to change – and I think common usage backs me up on it.  (IE, 'the color of their skin' rather than 'the content of their character'.)

I agree with you on this: I've lurked through the past month or so of threads and on the whole, you seem to not to strongly insult those who believe in God and do adopt some form of middle ground.  I will say, however, that your tendency to over-use (in my view) the word Islamo-Fascist in places where 'Islamo-Evangelical' might be a better word, could be taken as insulting.

 

Blake: Ouch, Blake – you are found guilty of not being able to recognize Cary Grant on sight, and what's worse, not having seen "Arsenic & Old Lace."  The sentence is death.

And I totally agree with you that some current of the Muslim posters here has an anti-Jewish slant, and that this IS racism.  (The Jews in general complicate the question of 'race', as they themselves do identify themselves as a 'people' according to a particular matrilineal descent, but at the same times, some forms of Judaism do accept converts…)

However, two points:  (A) Some of these posts are merely disagreeing with the practices (or the existence) of the state of Israel, and this is not inherently racist.  Anti-Zionism cannot be immediately conflated with Anti-Semitism.  While an Anti-Semite is almost definitely an Anti-Zionist, an Anti-Zionist is not necessarily and Anti-Semite.  (I myself question the rationale for founding the state of Israel on the basis of a claim from 2000 years ago, for instance – but I find anti-semitism one of the most cringe-worthy forms of racism to exist.)

(B)  Not all of the 'Islamic Evangelicals' here post anything at all about the state of Israel or the Jews, and in fact some post saying that the Jews are 'believers' (people of the book and all that) even though their text has got it wrong.  So I feel we have to distinguish between posters like hakimi (who seems to have some anti-Jewish racist tendencies, at least) and posters like muslima who (as far as I can recall in the recent past) does not.

But of course, what do I know?  My mind is polluted by Jewish-fascist propaganda and alcohol.  (Not a fan of 'drugs', but GOD do I love Jewish-fascist propaganda.  I think I might go do some right now, along with some scotch.)

Kanaobi:  Your answers make sense – during times when women have no form of individual support, polygamy is in the best interest of the women.  However, anyone who says that women are now free and equal to men, and is claiming that may 'own their own property, run their own business, and inherit in their own right' as Muslima does, is contradicting themselves if they then argue that these same women in some way might need the protection of a husband so much that it is in their interest to become wife#3 to a man who has 2 others rather than remain single.

04:58 PM Mar 10 2008 |

THE_ONE

THE_ONE

Israel

 Ohh….again and again and again….. mac chicken I mean Mark china…kana the cow…muslims… and some new members in the list,… hhahahah…FrownCoolCool…………………………………Mac chicken… do u have something stick in your …?Smile .. u really get mad  when someone talk about realgions…Sealedtake it easy chicken…hahahaha.. life is so simple….if not I can give u advice…drink ½ cup of water before u go to the toilet… it will make your life easier and much better… believe me… I  am doing it.. and it works…hahahahahaahaha..zzzzzzzzzzhahahahahaha.. wwpwowowowow………Cool……………………………..I cant believe how you are forcing other people to agree with your personal thoughts… take it easy chicken…hahahaha…Sealed………………………………………………I only liked these words from the whole topic which is written by M Augustus..Mark, that something can be 'racist against your beliefs'… u really get it right man…and most of us and also me  doing the same….hahahahaah……………Laughing………………………………………

Muslims are talking about their religion which something usual and also it is one of their rights to do that… i don’t agree with muslima in many points, I mean there are a lot of things that are not matching with me believes…. But it is not polite to consider her believs and thoughts as bull shit…. Noooo………………………………………………

This is awful man………………………………………….In my opinion.. Jews are the best in the world… which is something true in my OPINION….so am I a raciest??????hahahahaahahah………Laughing………………………………………Kana the cow… your boy will be angry from u because you are supporting the chicken in every single word… even the chicken is wrong…. Hahahaha.. I don’t think cows love ………………………………………….chickens…………………………..hahahahahahahahahaahzzzzzhahahahahaaha…………………………………..ZzzzzzzzzzzzahhahahahahahahahzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzahhahahahahahahahaZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzhahahhaahahahahahGuys I LOVE U ALL… specially  Mac chicken (mark china)….kana the cow…..and all of youLaughing

08:48 PM Mar 10 2008 |

M. Augustus

United States

First off, I'm not playing any 'game'  I'll go 'on the record' as being strongly in your camp and opposed to the same people you're opposed to.   I'm simply also in the camp of precise usage, and I don't believe your usage is precise.  When I say that 'Muslim supremacists' are not racist, I'm not trying to support them in any way.  

People who claim that the Muslim faith is inherently better than others are bigoted and wrong and have no place in discourse among reasonable people. 

But the name for their bigotry is not 'racism', and only the ones who are advocating that nations be governed by authoritarian Sharia systems are being 'fascistic'.

I hesitated to quote Martin Luther King because I thought it would be misunderstood and it was.  I was using 'color of their skin' and 'content of their character' as metaphors for 'intrinsic and non-changeable traits' and 'changeable characteristics', respectively. Sorry that the metaphorical range was not made more clear.

And like Blake said, I do acknowledge that the Jews present a curious problem where the division between race and religion is concerned.  On the one hand, you can have non-practicing, secular people who are still called 'Jews' because of their background – suggesting that it is a race.  On the other hand, you have people able to convert to Judaism, suggesting it's a religion.

Because Hitler's purge seemed more concerned with people's birth (secular Jews were sent to the camps along with practicing ones), I do think his policy was a racist one targeting ethnic Jews, rather than a 'religionist'  one targeting religious Jews.

 

Outside of the tricky case of the Jews, however, the line between religion and race becomes a lot clearer.  So, when a Muslim says "Islam is the true religion!" this is a bigoted statement but not a racist one.

On the other hand, redwana's 'Gaza' post, which talks about the Jews' "bloody thrist to kill children and women," is most definitely a racist statement, and one based on one of the most heinous lies in the history of racial prejudice, the Blood Libel.

06:28 AM Mar 11 2008 |

M. Augustus

United States

There's really no need to get rude.  I've been trying my damnedest to be polite to you, and unlike the Muslim supremacists you usually argue against, I've presented what I think (and what Blake, at least, will agree) are rational rather than dogmatic explanations for my position.

Whatever.  I can see you are thoroughly convinced of your own position and perfectly happy to go on calling Muslims racists and fascists, so I won't argue the point further.  I begin to suspect, however, that you're not really interested in increasing  understanding across cultures so much as polemics. 

Considering this is a message board, of course, I'm not sure why I didn't recognize that from the start. Wink

04:12 PM Mar 11 2008 |