Islam's Decline

a couple of members have posted about all the christian conversions to islam.

In light of that, I found this interesting 

Islam's Decline

A very interesting article from Pajamas Media about Islam's decline. Quoting an article by an Islamic scholar:

Islam used to represent … Africa’s main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non-Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century.

On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Every year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed.

In southern Russia the same pattern is emerging. According to Roman Silantyev, executive secretary of the Inter-religious Council in Russia, freed from atheist control, two million Muslims converted to Christianity. Repulsed by bloody terrorist attacks, those living in areas such as Beslan have converted to Christianity in the greatest numbers of all. As many as 100,000 have converted to Christianity in post-Soviet Kyrgyzstan.

After decades of Islamist war, evangelicals report thousands of sub-rosa converts in rural areas of Kashmir. Says one churchgoer: “I am interested in this religion. I hate violence. I hate fundamentalists in Islam. I come here to seek peace.” An Indian newspaper headline reads: “Urban Muslim Youth Out to Junk Faith.”

Take your time, AngelSmile – but when you get a chance, answer a couple questions for me.

1.  Is the fatwa issued against Sir Salman Rushdie justified because he published the Satanic Verses, which many Muslims consider blasphemous? (Rushdie is one of my favorite authors, though Verses is not one of his better novels)

2.  What about the killing of Theo van Gogh, who made the film Submission, which is critical of Islam?

there is an muslims scholar who was ex-christen said great things about Islam and why did he convert to it … if u want the link I would be glad to post it ;)

Frankly, I don't give a damn why an ex-Christian converted to Islam.  These kinds of inter-theological discussions seem to me like the two stereotypical children arguing about which one's Dad can beat up the other Dad- only in this case, neither father demonstrably exists.

That said, one thing I've noticed about EBaby muslims in the past couple months is that they LOVE to post hyperlinks, so go ahead, knock yourself out. 

These people who attach communism are they muslims ?> and if they were muslims why did they attached them if they didn't gross their lines ? why we would attach some one if he didn't hurt us ?

Because in the West we believe in the contest of ideas and questioning teachings, and allowing the best ones, by virtue of their bestness, to survive.  (Bad past experiences with dogmatic thought have produced this ideology.) Just because an idea is attacked does not make it right – it merely means that people are examining it for holes.

live with ur thoughts and believes and we will too … then why u people make this big ?!

This is a good idea.  If only you actually practiced it!  The Islamic world certainly didn't let the Danish newspapers live with their beliefs!  You have to allow free expression before this kind of philosophy can be put into practice.

excuse me who said to u that u will understand the holy Quran in one month or two ?

If u want to talk about reading Quran read it in 7 or 10 years … coz U will not understand the Holy Quran in one or Two days ?

The holy Quran its full of events thats u will never understand in one or two days

 Im True Muslims and Thank Allah for this that's why Im telling u that ..

No no,  I'm not getting angry.  "Knock yourself out" is an English saying.  It means, "Go ahead and do it".  Sorry about that, I know that English can have some weird sayings – but again, not angry.

I have to go to the library now and do some research for a paper – but I'll address the rest of your statement later.

Well gkisseberth Im not making stuff up here ?> u said that u dunt know what the books are about repeat ur answers plz then comeback

Angel, I will repeat that I never said that I don't know what the books are about. If you can show me otherwise, I will apologize for my error. But I didn't say that. I am not an expert on these books, that much is true.

second u ar proud of been athiest ? Then we the muslims are proud of been Muslims and beleivers

 Exactly as I said. I am as proud of my non-belief as you are of your belief.

Now why u keep this Fight on us ?

If I am fighting you, it is because of your silly argument that if people oppose you, you must be right and true. This argument is false on it's face and has been shown to be so by way of numerous examples that disprove it.  

I'm sure you can post links about Christians who are now Muslims and someone else could post links about former Muslim Imams who converted to Christianity. We could see some dueling hyperlinks.  :)

And on a serious note, can you explain the aunt story?

Did you mean aunt as in my mother or father's sister, or ant as in the insect?

Class on their back?    If you could explain better, maybe I could understand why the man became a muslim.  

Why do we have to get into such discussions!

Instead of copy-pasting articles, we should be trying to make this forum a more harmonious place of meeting. Not a religious battle ground.

—-——

Proud Student of Open English 

AngelSmile, I hope you'll come back and respond to this post – I just got back from doing my research.

First of all, I watched the video.  More of the same.  It explained one person's views on why Islam served him better than Christianity, but it didn't explain any form of 'truth' about Islam. 

One thing I did think was interesting is the notion he mentioned that the Islamic mosques are better at distributing alms money directly to the poor, as opposed to the Christian churches which nowadays accumulate a lot of cash at the top.  This doesn't do anything to validate Islamic BELIEFS, but it is a good point about the difference between the two.

About the 'aunt' story, I think the problem is an honest one of translation, not anything else.  We don't understand the English of what you're trying to say.

1st ,, when christen people comes to our Muslim
Countries we welcome them with all love and peace
as they reflect that to us …

2snd I have a nice and good christen freinds who
respects me and my religion and I replay this nice
treatment to them coz we repects each other …

3thd .. there is alot of foreigns people works
in the Muslim countries and we didn't hurt them
coz they didn't hurt us and they are good people

I'm sure this is all true.  But you said we should allow each person to live with whatever beliefs they have, and I agree, we should – even if those beliefs are ones critical of Islam, something you don't seem to be willing to grant them – even in their own countries.

but the different here is I critical
any thing expect my Religion and what I beleive
and thats coz Im sure on what Im walking throw…and thats
make me happy Thank god for this belssing .. : )

Then you aren't really critical.  To be critical means not to accept anything on authority, and to question everything.  This includes religious beliefs.  As a scholar and a modern, Western thinker, that's what I do.  I read texts critically, and I do mean all texts. 

We will never allow that to happen to any

Muslims or Christen or any one which means In ur

dreams coz we beleive in all the prophets and our

duty is to defend them …

 Then that's really, truly sad.  This is what we mean when we say that Islam needs to 'grow up'.  If Muslims cannot accept other peoples' rights to be critical of their beliefs, and to freedom of expression, then you truly are living in a pre-modern world.

I too, like gkiss., would not LIKE it if you made a drawing portraying me as a an animal or a murderer or something foul – but I would respect the fact that you had a RIGHT to do it.  I might write a rebuttal, but threats of violence would be absolutely wrong.

I didn't acutely read that novel to judge it
but I'm pretty sure that muslims will not consider it
blasphemous with no reasons

IF the novel is blasphemous, then is the fatwa justified?

1… Why did they kill Sadam Husin ?
2… Why did they kill Arafat ?

3.. Why did they kill the sons of sadam ?

Help me out here – is there a 'the jews killed Arafat' conspiracy that I'm not aware of?  Because I'm pretty sure that he died a natural death.

As for Saddam and his sons – I'm not a big fan of the war in Iraq myself – but are you seriously saying that the deeds of a brutal tyrant dynasty like Saddam Hussein and his sons are as bad as making a movie about a religion?

lets imagine that we don’t believe in Jesus ?
 ok and we draw him with bad and stupid
Draws will the christen people accept that ?

As I've said before, most Christians would!  In the past 15 years or so, there have been some groups of Christians (fundamentalists) who have started reacting with anger whenever people make fun of Jesus – but reacting with anger is fine!  The use (or threat) of violence is NOT fine, nor is attempting to pass laws against free expression.

Again, no one is saying you have to LIKE the drawings – you have every right to express your anger if they make you angry.  But trying to ban them or to threaten violence against the people who make them is not your right.

I dunt have to ask myself any Qiz Coz I already know the answers … So if u want to ask any thing I would be so glad to answer u ..

It's your right not to question your religion.  My point is simply that you can't say I don't know anything about the Qu'ran, because I've been reading it for years now.  And I don't read it with 'hate', I just read it with a Westerner's critical eye.  It's the same way I read the Aristotle, the Bible, or Dan Brown (oh please, please don't make me read any more Dan Brown!)

well Islam then will not grow up if this is the demand

noone in this world would like to see his religion insulting
lets Face it as we said … and u said every one with his rights
right ? Then why would u attack our rights with some thing calls Free expression ? u said this our rights which means its owns ! then why would u attack it ? if u the one who give it ?

What rights do you think that the Muslims are not being allowed?  It's not a 'right' to kill cartoonists, novelists or filmmakers who make you angry, you know.  What rights did the Danish cartoonists take away from you?

ok from ur words here I understand that u ar defending the  paintings ? not urself esteem ?

 Nope, my self-esteem is great.  In the United States, it's considered a mark of high self-esteem to NOT care what other's say about you.

 I think that in the Arab world, being called an animal may be something worse than it is in the United States – here it's an insult, sure, but not a very bad one.

Also, you've got to stop with this 'don't lie to yourself' line.  It's weak and it destroys a good discussion if you keep calling your opponent a liar.  I'm telling you the way it is in the Western world.  If a kid on the street insults you, then you don't LIKE it, but you don't use violence against the kid or try to ban small children from saying insulting things.  (If you do the first, in fact, you're a criminal.)

do u think they will listen to us ?!>
do u think they will give us our rights ?

Again, what rights do you think the Muslims aren't getting?  In most countries in the world, they're given full rights to worship as they please.

do u think they will stop the moives which making bad
things about us ?
do u thing they will be stop the painting ?

Actually, you know, the thing is that if you DID answer your critics in calm methods rather than violent ones, there WOULD be fewer movies saying bad things about you – since a lot of these movies are specifically criticizing the violence in the Islamic world.  That's the way the Western world works.  You solve your problems with each other with words. 

as the newepapers said Yup it was conspiracy coz they poisoned him according to what news papers and Tv showed

I'm suspect.  Of course, there's no way to get to an agreement on this matter.  You will say that the USA media is not honest to us, I will say that the Arab media isn't truthful with you. 

and that movier maker was the same coz he did the same he killed innocent people

No, he didn't.  Theo van Gogh was a filmmaker, not a killer.   He did not kill anybody.

saddam as people said spread violence

and the movie maker did the same

Again, no he didn't.  He did not spread violence. He presented his opinions in a peaceful manner.  Again, that's the difference.  One is acceptable in the modern world, the other is not.

You didn't answer the other question.  What about Salman Rushdie?  If he wrote a blasphemous book, is the fatwa against him justified?

Angel, I will repeat that I never said that I don't know what the books are about. If you can show me otherwise, I will apologize for my error. But I didn't say that. I am not an expert on these books, that much is true.

Yup u said it … go to the subject Do u beleive in god and u will see ur post up there ..

That thread currently has 244 posts on 25 pages. If you want to prove YOUR point, then you can look for it.  

 and if u apologize ? then dunt write any thing b4 u make sure of what u ar going to say

I rarely write without thinking, but I appreciate your warning.  But what will happen if I say the wrong thing? World War IV? 

If I am fighting you, it is because of your silly argument that if people oppose you, you must be right and true. This argument is false on it's face and has been shown to be so by way of numerous examples that disprove it.  

Wow now Im the silly one ? great

ok I accpet that Im silly

You can accept that if you want, but I didn't say you are silly. I said your argument is silly. 

then why u ar Fighting Muslims in General ? does coz they are silly too ?

If they offer silly arguments, then I will fight those. 

How many times I will repeat what Im saying ? I will repeat it for last time that every one have brain to pick what he is picking … so Muslims convert to christen and chrsiten convert to Muslims … That's keep it balance dunt u agree ?

Is balance a good thing here? Having about the same number of muslims and christians? When someone converts from one the other other, as far as I am concerned, they are still equally wrong.  

In my mind belief in a Christian god or a Muslim god, or a Jewish god, or any god are equally bad.

And on a serious note, can you explain the aunt story?

sure I would

Did you mean aunt as in my mother or father's sister, or ant as in the insect?

ar u trying to be funny ? coz u ar not beleive me and if u want to show some one his mistake then show it with little respect u see big defferent between me and u : )

No, I wasn´t trying to be funny, nor was I trying to point out a mistake. I can't even know if there is a mistake until I understand what you were trying to write. My question was offered with the utmost respect. You seem to see disrespect in some very small things.

at least u could say did u mean aunt or ant ? but we are defferent …. sure we are …are'nt we ?

I did say that, and I gave short clarifications of what I meant. Aunt and ant are homophones. They are words that sound alike and can be frequently confused. I have had student make this mistake before, so I made sure to make my question clear. 

what ever

Class on their back?    If you could explain better, maybe I could understand why the man became a muslim.  

Of course u didn't hear this story coz u ar busy in Fighting ..

Any way its  australian scholar who was looking for any erroe in the Quran and he read about the ant and that she has class on her back .. he didn't understand it in the beggining so he judge it fast and said how ants have class on their back ?!>

any way he still on his thoughts many years until Finally He found that the ants it does have class … small class inside it on the their back … and he was amazied which leaded him to Islam way

Now that I know you mean the insect, I am further confused by the word CLASS. This word has multiple meanings in English, but I can't think of how it could apply to something an ant could have on it´s back. This is one reason why I thought the story might have been about a person (an aunt). Class can mean something like sophistication or the opposite of crude or rude behavior. It could also mean a group of students (the class of 2008 or the best in his class)  or a subject studied at a specific time (we´re late for English class)

I thought maybe you meant GLASS, but ants don't have glass on their backs either.

If u want to make sure go and kill an ant with ur finger .. u will feel that some thing is breaking in her and thats the class inside her

I will leave the killing experiments to others, but I imagine that thing breaking would be the ant´s exoskeleton, no? 

Peace

Angel, before I continue with my answer to your post, one mistake in English I've noticed you making a lot – you say 'gross', but the word that you should use is 'cross'.  (The main purpose of the site is helping people learn English, so I think I should point that out before continuing the discussion.) 

for me violence it's bad and we should not use it but .. lets take a close look about what's happening in the world .. u will see that we are not the only who use violence ..

I agree with you here – Muslims are not the only people in the world using violence.  Here's the difference that I think is important, though: People in the Western world for the most part do not consider resorting to violence as a result insulting words acceptable.  People do it sometimes, yes – but it is a crime to kill or injure somebody just because he insulted your religion. 

The truth is – people make insulting drawings or tell insulting jokes about Jesus ALL THE TIME in the Western world (I could tell you a few very vulgar ones, but it wouldn't be appropriate here).  Some Christians do get offended, but very, very few of them react violently, and the ones that do are quickly condemned.  (Not as quickly these days in the USA, as the country seems moving towards fundamentalism, but there is still hope to reverse the trend.)

You do have a good point that reacting with threats of violence is an emotional response, and I think as long as these reactions are instinctive, emotional reactions to some offense which are then forgotten when a person comes back to his senses, there's no real harm – after all, freedom of expression includes the right to express anger at offense.  The problem is when you have a more thought-out threat of violence (like the fatwa issued against Rushdie, for instance.)

 ok and its not their rights to insult us too …

Actually, what I'm telling you is that in the Western world, we DO consider it a right to insult others – a very precious, important one.  Maybe this isn'tthe case in the Muslim world, but in the West, centuries of dealing with tyrants and opponents of free speech have made us very, very dedicated to this right.  If there is something I believe in with the absolute fervor that a Muslim believes in Allah, it is the right to absolute free expression.

ok as long as u read it in the westerner's critical eye then try to go to any Masjed ( Mosque) coz critical means u have alot of Qizs that u want the answers 4 .. then try to use The Imam of any Masjed and he will help u out to understand every thing u want .. and u can ask him any thing and he will answer u …

I may just do that – though I'm not sure that the questions I pose are the kinds of questions that he's prepared to answer.  I mean, 'critical' doesn't just mean 'having questions about the text' – it means 'challenging the text'.

why u don't u want to read about the Dan Brown ? what is Dan Brown any way ? It's religion or what ? Im interested to know ..

Dan Brown is a novelist who's popular in the United States right now.  He writes very badly-written fiction with some very confused ideas about religion and history.  That was a joke.

lets see …. most of muslims have been stray from their countries bcoz of the war and invasion ….

and in Palestine 4 example they can't go to any city bcoz of blockade ….

These are valid concerns – but they are not rights which are challenged by free expression.  Danish newspapers publishing cartoons do not deny Palestinians the right to go to a city.  In fact, it is the right of free expression which allows many in the United States to protest against the government's support of Israel in these kinds of policies.

and it's not a right to use the movie world to insult others ..

it is great to use the movie world to spread nice and useful moives and spread peace not voilence by insulting others ….

 As I said before, in the Western world, yes it IS considered a right.

I think one thing we need to do is point out the difference between rights and proper behavior.  When I say that people have a RIGHT to be insulting to other people's religions, I don't mean that it's NICE to insult other people's religions.  I simply mean that free expression demands that they be ALLOWED to do it.  I think it's acceptable for Muslims to say that Danish newspapers should not publish insulting cartoons, but it's NOT acceptable for Muslims to say that Danish newspapers should not be ALLOWED to publish insulting cartoons.  Do you understand the difference?  I can explain it in different words if it would help. 

One thing that's confusing is that English uses the word 'right' in both cases.  'A right' is something that you are ALLOWED to do, but "the right thing" is what you SHOULD do.

but .. in the religion case it does matter coz u can not judge any religion without deep knowlege and u can not judge it if u didn't read the real history of it ….

How are we defining 'deep knowledge' here? 

ok try to have a real muslim as one of ur freinds and then judge about the Islamic world >

let me tell u something in here

I dun't blame u when u said violence > coz alot of people don't pray and they don't follow the Islamic rules and bcoz of them all the people took bad pic about Islam

and what made me feel sorry for them that they judge all the Muslims bcoz of One Group

I agree with you to an extent, -most Muslims are probably more sensible and less violent than the few who make the news.  but the job of these more sensible Muslims like yourself is to very vocally and noisily say "No.  These people who do violent acts are sinful people who do not represent what most of Islam thinks.   The fatwa against Salman Rushdie is foolish and wrong, the murderer of Theo van Gogh was an evil man." and so on.  Show us that the majority of muslims do NOT agree with these violent, medieval people.

Yup animal its worse here coz Allah Greated us in pretty and good shapes why then we similar ourselves to the animles ?

One of the foundational principles of modern evolutionary biology is that we all ARE animals.  Animals with a tremendously developed brain, but animals, all the same.  Hence, I think the strength of the insult "animal" has been lost over time.

no I didn't mean by 'don't lie to yourself' A lier I meant by this sentence don't fool yourself with something that u know u will not handle it when u will face it …

But the thing is, I HAVE faced it.  I've been insulted by a number of people in my life, and I've handled it without resorting to violence every time.  In the USA, that's considered a mark of high self-esteem. 

Oh God do u mean insulting others by that way its call peaceful manner ??

Yes, it is.  It's one thing to insult another person's religion.  It's much, much worse to kill somebody.

and don't say he didn't kill … he killed alot of innocent people …

Who did he kill?  Name one person he killed. 

and plz stop saying that he had rights to insult others ..

people with feelings … and that's why we should respect them

 Again, see my discussion above about 'rights' as opposed to what somebody SHOULD do.